Olivença é nossa !!!
This title is translated as “Olivença is ours!”
What is Olivença? A small town near the border between Spain and Portugal, nowadays Spanish territory.
Portuguese Temple Knights have made a sanctuary and a castle there in 1230 after fighting side by side with Castile to drive the Moors ‘back to Africa’.
Although the Moors who lived there by then were not the original Arab invaders from 711 but the progeny of the progeny of the progeny of the said invaders.
In 1297 King D. Dinis of Portugal and King D. Fernando IV of Castile have agreed that Olivença was Portuguese territory.
When D. Filipe II of Spain I of Portugal became the sole monarch of both kingdoms Olivença became Spanish.
When D. João IV recovered the Portuguese independence in 1640 Olivença cheered and acclaimed the monarch, staying on the Portuguese side on the war that ensued. By 1647 Olivença was taken by the Spanish and remained Spanish until 1668 when the peace treaty was signed, becoming again a Portuguese town.
Along comes Napoleon and the French invasions and Spain siding with the invaders took Olivença.
In 1815 both Portugal and Spain signed the Vienna Convention thus making Olivença Portuguese again, although Spain kept its rule on Olivença until today.
Sorry for taking so long to get to my point, but this is all common knowledge among Portuguese people and it will help me if you know these facts.
My point: historical rights.
Throughout history many places have had many ‘masters’, countries became empires, invading and ruling other countries, making colonies, etc… Empires rose and fell.
Is Olivença Portuguese because we conquered it? Is it Arab, because they conquered it first? Is it Spain because they are there now although they signed a treaty promising to leave?
Be careful now, because your answer can be applied to the Middle East too.
Or to America, should America’s rule be given to the First Nations?
Historically Europe poses even a bigger issue, it has been ruled twice by the Germans (after all the Huns were Germans of a kind), most of it has been ruled by Spain, same by Austria.
What about Africa? What about the colonies? If you say African countries are entitled to their independence you are saying the invaders should yield their rule.
Where does one draw a line on historical quests over land?
And what about treasures taken from other countries? Should the British Museum give back everything that was taken there from places that now are no longer under British rule?
No, I do not have an answer. I just posted this to give you all something to think about. At some point in every discussion we may think we have THE reason regarding one particular historical claim over something, but when we are faced with other claims we easily fall in contradiction.
Have a nice weekend everybody.
PS: I actually don’t give a damn if Olivença is still Spain.
What is Olivença? A small town near the border between Spain and Portugal, nowadays Spanish territory.
Portuguese Temple Knights have made a sanctuary and a castle there in 1230 after fighting side by side with Castile to drive the Moors ‘back to Africa’.
Although the Moors who lived there by then were not the original Arab invaders from 711 but the progeny of the progeny of the progeny of the said invaders.
In 1297 King D. Dinis of Portugal and King D. Fernando IV of Castile have agreed that Olivença was Portuguese territory.
When D. Filipe II of Spain I of Portugal became the sole monarch of both kingdoms Olivença became Spanish.
When D. João IV recovered the Portuguese independence in 1640 Olivença cheered and acclaimed the monarch, staying on the Portuguese side on the war that ensued. By 1647 Olivença was taken by the Spanish and remained Spanish until 1668 when the peace treaty was signed, becoming again a Portuguese town.
Along comes Napoleon and the French invasions and Spain siding with the invaders took Olivença.
In 1815 both Portugal and Spain signed the Vienna Convention thus making Olivença Portuguese again, although Spain kept its rule on Olivença until today.
Sorry for taking so long to get to my point, but this is all common knowledge among Portuguese people and it will help me if you know these facts.
My point: historical rights.
Throughout history many places have had many ‘masters’, countries became empires, invading and ruling other countries, making colonies, etc… Empires rose and fell.
Is Olivença Portuguese because we conquered it? Is it Arab, because they conquered it first? Is it Spain because they are there now although they signed a treaty promising to leave?
Be careful now, because your answer can be applied to the Middle East too.
Or to America, should America’s rule be given to the First Nations?
Historically Europe poses even a bigger issue, it has been ruled twice by the Germans (after all the Huns were Germans of a kind), most of it has been ruled by Spain, same by Austria.
What about Africa? What about the colonies? If you say African countries are entitled to their independence you are saying the invaders should yield their rule.
Where does one draw a line on historical quests over land?
And what about treasures taken from other countries? Should the British Museum give back everything that was taken there from places that now are no longer under British rule?
No, I do not have an answer. I just posted this to give you all something to think about. At some point in every discussion we may think we have THE reason regarding one particular historical claim over something, but when we are faced with other claims we easily fall in contradiction.
Have a nice weekend everybody.
PS: I actually don’t give a damn if Olivença is still Spain.
posted by DCveR at 8:30 AM
5 Comments:
An interesting one this Dcver! and a few opinions to come.... My contribution to this post will be this: Has anyone seen the film "La Busqueda?", ok its a Hollywood job with Nicolas Cage maybe not at his best but it does send a message re: National treasures, this is the peoples treasure so valuable in most cases that it should not belong to any one person, where it originated from and who owns it is up for debate but ultimatly it belongs to the people - museums/galleries etc is the best place for it but in which country and who decides? Never ending debate...
It's an unsolveable dilema, especially if you discuss it in general, so I think you'll have to solve each and every separately... But this sometimes turns out in bloodshed and confrontation, or an unsolvable stalemate... Though one...
Yes, DC, there are many places like Olivenca in the world.
And they are all due to those invading powers that carved themselves chunks of land along meridian lines without regard to the existing tribal divisions.
What happened in Rwanda is the direct result of colonisation and power play.
cave renovator: The problem is exactly who keeps those treasures or who keeps the land, because regardless of granting access to all, whoever keeps land or treasures can capitalize on it, by charging admission, for example.
isa, isae: But all our legal systems work with precedents. Legally, no matter if on a national or international level, you must use the same criteria to judge similar matters.
cream: Historically you can not blame any nation of invading other nations, not so long ago that was the common practice with all mankind, that is one of hte things I've been thinking for quite some time. It may be hard to swallow for some but it is a bit like a child who has just know becoming aware of good and evil: you can't punish that child for things done before that awareness.
What was I saying before the blugger ate my comment? About land and disputes?
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