How we hate the Spaniards
We Portuguese and our neighbors, the Damned Spaniards, have a tradition of hate that is as old as Portugal and older than Spain.
Older than Spain because Spain as we know it today is younger than Portugal.
At first there were the kingdoms of Castilla, Leon, Aragon and Navarra, and back then Portugal was but a small territory belonging to one of the kingdoms. That territory was given to a borgundese count, a crusader, as payment for his help fighting the Moors.
Well, things were going rather smooth until the count died. You see, his son was not very fond of the idea of fighting the Moors, getting back the invaded territory and handing it over to the King. So, against his mother’s will he rebelled. Thus was our country born. Traditionally we say it’s no wonder we all have a temper, after all our Nation started with a guy beating his own mom.
From that time 'til a few centuries ago the damned Spaniards have tried to invade us, tried to marry our throne off and tried by every mean rule our little stretch of land (during a certain period of time they actually ruled us again, but we managed to fight them off). Nowadays their companies are buying a lot of our companies, but that is a story for another post.
In the meantime we would be allies against the Moors, now and then, and fight each others whenever there were no Moor invaders to slay.
Of course nowadays we are best friends with “nuestros hermanos” (yup, that is how we call them, “our brothers” in their own language).
The truth is since the invasions ceased this hatred relationship turned into something of a love-hatred relationship. We all have Spanish friends just the same way all Spaniards have Portuguese friends, we all tell nasty jokes about the others, we all say our food and our wine is better than the ones across the border, we all enjoy going across the border for a few days and coming back saying the worst possible things about the other country, we all secretly feast on the other country’s delicacies.
And if you travel through border towns you’ll see a lot of inter-marriages, you’ll see people going across the border to work or shop, and most of all you’ll see people helping each other across the border.
Still we hate the Spaniards, after all that is the tradition and we have a saying: “de Espanha nem bom vento nem bom casamento”, literally meaning “from Spain neither wind or marriage are good”. This is: nothing that is related to Spain is good. You simply can not ignore a tradition established in 1143.
All this said I would like to dedicate this post to all my Spanish friends.
Older than Spain because Spain as we know it today is younger than Portugal.
At first there were the kingdoms of Castilla, Leon, Aragon and Navarra, and back then Portugal was but a small territory belonging to one of the kingdoms. That territory was given to a borgundese count, a crusader, as payment for his help fighting the Moors.
Well, things were going rather smooth until the count died. You see, his son was not very fond of the idea of fighting the Moors, getting back the invaded territory and handing it over to the King. So, against his mother’s will he rebelled. Thus was our country born. Traditionally we say it’s no wonder we all have a temper, after all our Nation started with a guy beating his own mom.
From that time 'til a few centuries ago the damned Spaniards have tried to invade us, tried to marry our throne off and tried by every mean rule our little stretch of land (during a certain period of time they actually ruled us again, but we managed to fight them off). Nowadays their companies are buying a lot of our companies, but that is a story for another post.
In the meantime we would be allies against the Moors, now and then, and fight each others whenever there were no Moor invaders to slay.
Of course nowadays we are best friends with “nuestros hermanos” (yup, that is how we call them, “our brothers” in their own language).
The truth is since the invasions ceased this hatred relationship turned into something of a love-hatred relationship. We all have Spanish friends just the same way all Spaniards have Portuguese friends, we all tell nasty jokes about the others, we all say our food and our wine is better than the ones across the border, we all enjoy going across the border for a few days and coming back saying the worst possible things about the other country, we all secretly feast on the other country’s delicacies.
And if you travel through border towns you’ll see a lot of inter-marriages, you’ll see people going across the border to work or shop, and most of all you’ll see people helping each other across the border.
Still we hate the Spaniards, after all that is the tradition and we have a saying: “de Espanha nem bom vento nem bom casamento”, literally meaning “from Spain neither wind or marriage are good”. This is: nothing that is related to Spain is good. You simply can not ignore a tradition established in 1143.
All this said I would like to dedicate this post to all my Spanish friends.
posted by DCveR at 8:58 AM
31 Comments:
i'm slightly biased, but at least you guys get most of the west coast. the relationship sounds a little like that of canada/united states.
I visited both Spain and Portugal once. I liked Portugal better.
cadiz: You are biased you say... well, I am not biased. Not at all. LOL
kris: Of course you liked Portugal better! Any Portuguese person knew that! :D
Just came back from Spain yesterday. Love the Costa Blanca but people aren't as open or friendly as in Portugal.
It is like every other neighbour, really. Algeria-Tunisia, Algeria-Morocco, etc... Seven frontiers! So many people to hate!
Nowadays, the North Sea is my only border...
I wish history books were written like this :-D I totally enjoyed reading this.
O meu marido?...Is that you? Did you break into dcver's blog to write this??
conclusion: both the spaniards AND the portuguese are just SWEET sweet bunch of people!! :)
cream: The funny thing is that the fact that we share so many things throughout history makes for some rivalry but at the same time makes for a lot of cumplicity between the people of both countries.
GG: History sometimes is written like this, but even when it is written as a "dry" series of events, you can always read it like this simply by thinking about the hows and whys.
portuguesa: LOL Not just your husband and me, the whole nation! Every true Portuguese has this feeling from the crib.
ale: But you'd better not cross either Portuguese or Spaniards. We all have temper issues. ;)
Hating Spaniards is a traditional atittude... not that we mean it - it just lies under the skin. In the real world, all Spaniards I ever met are very nice people and I even got some friends across the border... (well... guess I'm just lucky ;))
BB
I've read one book, Bush Tucker Man that well told history. I do ask how and why, but I tend to fall asleep if history books are too dry.
Temper issues? Sounds dramatic.
ariadne: Most of the real hate is gone, but the 'folklore' of this hate is all here yet.
GG: Some authors here started a series of "horrible books": horrible math, horrible history, horrible physics. Teaching kids with an unorthodox method, mixing subjects with action/horror stories. Dramatic? Yes, lots of drama, in a theatrical sense ;)
He-he! it is the same relationship between norway and sweden too, we been united, allied, occupants and sworn enemies throughout a millenium:) Still we love each other, and the fact that swedes are mostly stupid and conform...
Awesome history lesson. Seriously, I never knew this. Its always fun to hate Americans. ::smirk::
And isnt the Spanish dance so breathtaking?
Hey Dcver, since I have missed a lot, have you written any blog on your cultural history, the dance form(s) and any ethnic festivals? If not, why dont you write something on that.
DC: I'm with GG. If my European history textbooks were written this way perhaps I would have stayed away.
Well how about how Hawaii's history is portrayed in the average U.S. school book? Util I moved here I never knew this was a sovereign monarchy that was taken through bloodless coup by U.S. backed interests. And that the rightful queen was held hostage in her palace until she abdicated the kingdom in 1896. Disgraceful. And more of our famous U.S. "Manifest Destiny" in action.
Dc: A food/dining question. In Spain, the siesta thing would happen in the afternoon, but people basically did not start eating until about 9pm. Same thing there?
Oh I should explain that term to our European friends.."Manifest Destiny" was a 19th century term sanctifying our god-given right to expand into wherever the hell we saw fit. And boot out whoever was living there first.
isa, isae: Sweden, the place above human petty fights... In southern Europe they are seen as the "Moral Snobs" of Europe. But relax, Norway is seen in a much similar way.
bees knees: You need physical contact to establish this kind of relationship, you got to have borders with the other country. Guess if you are Canadian or Mexican you can have this kind of feeling towards the US.
Anoop: I assume you are talking about the Flamenco, that is a quite peculiar case because traditionally Spaniards say Flamenco is theirs but Gypsies claim the same. The fact that Gypsies all over Europe dance it and the fact that the Gypsy culture seems to be very old too leaves some room to doubt on Flamenco's origin. It is hard writing about something as visual and 'physical' as dance.
Bent: What about your American history textbooks? The problem most times is to relate to the events. People can relate to causes, to actions and events but can hardly relate to a lists and chronologies.
Kris: I have never read Hawaiian history on an American book. I’ve read it on European books and later from books by the Bishop’s Museum. But I guess it is pretty much the same as the difference between a Portuguese history book and a history book from one of our former colonies. Winners write history, everybody knows that. “Manifest Destiny” is the colonialist policy the colonials, of course, that bit is known in Europe, but are you sure it was 19th century alone?
kris: Sorry, I skipped the answer to your question. We don't have siesta here. The fact we are closer to the sea makes for a more pleasant temperate climate. Still most people have dinner starting at 8 or 9 pm too.
I had never seen more stereotypes in one blog. Siesta, flamingo and all that crap.
Portuguese are a bit psychotic about Spain. The first time I went to Portugal, about 20 years ago, the taxi driver gave me a pitch about Spain wanting to invade Portugal. I had never ever heard in my life anyone in Spain suggesting this. In fact, in Spain I hardly see any news about Portugal, we simply ignore it. So do not worry.
Anyway, I could not care less. I am a Catalan, my mother tongue is Catalan, I do not take naps, I do not dance flamingo, and my nation was formed in the IX century, before Portugal and before Spain (1555).
ian: In Portugal you would not be considered a 'Spaniard' exactly because we usually look at Cataluna, Galicia and Basque Country as separate nations.
Oh, and thank you so much for reassuring me that we will not be invaded!!!
Your comment about the taxi driver reminded me Ale's post about Barcelona, btw. LOL
Ian, I hope I didn't insult you using the term "siesta," but what *is* it called when everyone gets mellow and closes up shop in the middle of the day then? Happens in Italy too.
dc: You are correct. Manifest Destiny has been an unfortunate policy of too many nations, yes, for much longer than a couple of hundred years.
kris: Portugal, Spain, England, the Netherlands, France, Germany, Austria, we all were Imperial Nations. We assumed that while we were such and we can live with the past now that we no longer have expansionist goals. Americans however seem to have issues with that policy.
Let me talk about siesta. In the past, when Spain was a rural country and most of the people were farmers and started to work a 5am, people took naps in the afternoon when termperatures reached 30 degrees C or higher (95F). That's history, now most of the people work from 8am to 6pm and I can tell you that we do not have dormitories in the office buildings or in the factories (as some scandinavians visitng had asked me sometimes). So why do shops close between 2 and 4pm. Aren't the shop attendants taking a nap in the closet?? Absolutely not. The small commerce closes in Spain from 2 to 4 for two reasons, first so that people can have lunch (lunch in Spain takes longer than in the rest of the western world), but second and most important because most small/medium shops are family run and they cannot afford to run 2 shifts, since shops are open in Spain until faily late, employees need to take a two hour break, otherwise they would be working for 12 hours a day!!!
So Kris, I am sorry to disappoint you, but if you were thinking of moving to work to Spain to get your little bed next to your office table, I am afraid you will not get that, and if someone offers it to you, you should be suspicious.
The Portuguese/Spanish feud sounds similar to our (British) rivalry with the French. We like their food and wine, we like their fashion and their perfume, we like to go on holiday there, and we like to slag them off. And vice versa. Which just goes to show, human beings are stupid and will always find some reason to argue with the people around them...
annie: But arguing can be productive. Anyway nowadays we simply tease each other.
I didn't realize that. Thanks for the history lesson :)
glitzy: My pleasure, but if you are really interested in history this will fall short of a good lesson. By a long way...
This is not meant to bother you but, could you tell me why my Portuguese teacher, who is from Portugal, thinks that most Portuguese admire both Spaniards and Brazilians?? She says that, in a way, this is due to an inferiority complex on their part... She also says that many Portuguese would be happy if Portugal was taken over by Spaniards... When I heard this, I thought it was really sad. Really sad that a country with such a rich history and such a beautiful language as yours can feel inferior to any country... And, let me tell you something funny. The reason why I ended up in your blog is that I was looking for opinions by British people on Spaniards. I wrote "We hate Spaniards" and this is what I got. I have to admit I was pretty surprised to read that not only do Portuguese hate Spaniards but they also think the feeling is mutual... Really funny though, since none of the people I know have ever make comments against you, Portuguese, but rather the opposite. See, I'm a Damned Spaniard who is stuying your beautiful language. I live right across the northern border from Portugal, in León. I think portuguese people are just great, because they are so warm and open. There are parts of their lexicon and traditions ingrained in mine and vice-versa. I had never heard of any "tradition of hate" between our two nations before. I can't help but reading in amazement that I'm suposed to hate my neighbours.
By the way, if there is some kind of competition here for the oldest history, I must say the kingdom of León was formed in 910... To tell the truth, it is no longer a Kingdom as Catalonia is not a nation... so what? God this is so funny, I was born 25 years ago and you guys are probably not older than a century... XD I think knowing about one's history is not only amusing but also necessary but showing off about something you are not responsible for is just crazy... Face it, you have nothing to do with the formation of your respective places of origin (Catalonia/Portugal). Feel proud of your ancestors but, please, don't act as if the rest should be ashamed of how short the history of their people is because that is what both of you are implying (ian llorens/dcver). Think about.
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